TAS 297 5 Tips to Better Understand Your Market and Increase Conversions

Today’s topic on The Amazing Seller is not all that appealing at first glance. It’s the issue of figuring out exactly who your target market is – your ideal customer – and how to speak the language they actually use in real life so that you can relate better to them and increase your conversions. For this episode, Scott has asked Joel Bower to come on the show because he’s got tons of experience in this area and has been working to hone his skills in customer messaging to amplify his impact and sales. You won’t want to miss this because the results that can come from a few small tweaks can be powerful for sales conversions. Be sure to listen!

The #1 way you are wasting your marketing money.

Everybody who is selling products online – whether private label products or some other channel – understands that marketing is what keeps the wheels of the machine rolling. But you can’t just shoot out marketing messages and expect people to buy your products. You’ve got to produce marketing messages that connect with real people in real life. When you do that well you are showing a real person on the other end of your message that you care about them and that you can provide the perfect solution to their problem or need. Joel Bower has learned how to craft his marketing messages to truly connect with the person on the other side of the message – and he shares his top 5 tips on this episode.

Why you’ve got to use the features of your product to highlight the benefits.

When you’re setting up a product listing inside the Amazon dashboard you have the opportunity to set up bullet points to highlight the features of your product. It’s important to list the features because they are a finer point of the things that make your product unique. But you’ve got to learn not to major on the features but instead focus on the benefits the end user will receive from using the features. The people who are purchasing your product need to understand what they are going to get from using your product and each feature needs to be tied into that basic human need to benefit personally. Find out more about how to do this like a pro, on this episode.  

Here’s why you have to understand your customer’s journey to increase sales.

There’s more to marketing your products than simply putting out your message and receiving the sale. You’ve got to understand that your customers are on a journey of sorts, a progression from recognition of their need all the way beyond making a purchase to meet that need – into a relationship with the person who helps them meet it (you). On this episode Scott and his guest Joel are chatting about how important it is for you to understand your customer’s buying journey and how you can create marketing messages that not only take it into account but go beyond that to utilize it to help them see the benefits your products will provide and lead them along on that buying journey into relationship with you.

How to use the knowledge that extroverts are led by excitement and introverts are led by security.

There are two types of people in the world in terms of how they relate to others – introverts and extroverts. At risk of being too simplistic, you can use those two personality types to your advantage when it comes to selling your products. Extroverts are led toward a decision, many times, by excitement. Introverts, on the other hand, are led to a decision oftentimes through their desire for safety. Listen to this episode to better understand how your use of those motivations can help you position your products and marketing messages to tap into those underlying needs and gain more sales and customer relationships as a result.


  • [0:03] Scott’s introduction to this podcast for connecting better with your customer, and Scott’s guest Joel Bower.
  • [2:25] Joel’s start in real estate and how he got into online sales.
  • [6:48] How Scott has learned from Joel and the rest of the people on his team.
  • [8:05] The power of creating copy (writing) that connects to real people.
  • [13:33] The difference between features and benefits and why it’s important to understand.
  • [19:10] The vital nature of understanding your customer’s journey toward a purchase.
  • [33:00] Understanding personality profiling: extrovert VS introvert.
  • [42:50] Adding personality to your product through your emails – it’s powerful!


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TAS 297 : 5 Tips to Better Understand Your Market and Increase Conversions


[00:00:03] Scott: Well hey, hey what’s up everyone! Welcome back to another episode of The Amazing Seller Podcast. This is episode number 297 and today we’re going to talk all about, how to understand your customer and what language…

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…to use here so we can better communicate with them and your better conversions and I have a good friend of mine on who is going to be sharing some thoughts on this. Someone that’s actually been doing a lot of this behind the scenes and he is going to help us out and his name is Joel Bauer and I finally got that right. Joel did I say it right?

[00:00:35] Joel: You got it.

[00:00:37] Scott: Yes. It’s a funny story we’ll share here in a little bit but you guys may or may not have not heard me talk about Joel before. Joel was at our last year‘s breakthrough live. He’s also a part of the TAS team now and I’m glad to have him. He’s actually Chris Shaffer’s business partner and yeah he’s just a smart guy so Joel I’m so glad to have you on and really dig into this. I know you kind of geek about the stuff like I do yeah so awesome to have you.

[00:01:02] Joel:  It’s great to be here Scott. It’s the first time so I’m excited.

[00:01:05] Scott: Yeah. Well it wasn’t really the first because we had we had a little bit of a mishap there. And that was on my end I’m going to take the blame for it.

[00:01:15] Joel: For that recording if anybody gets that special secret recording of the best interview ever.

[00:01:21] Scott: Well and again this is this what happened guys, I mean here you are you’re thinking that everything is running right and you have a great interview going on and then you look down and you figure out that your microphone is not plugged in. My audio was being picked up from my computer and not my mic and the reason is I just I just got back from San Diego and I don’t know… Long story short is I wasn’t prepared I guess. So now we are and we are here we going to deliver this. I’m really excited about sharing this though.

A lot of people think of this as it’s not really sexy. I mean it’s like wow who wants to really talk about messaging your audience or the right language to use and what that can really do to impact yourselves because that’s really what it comes down to. How can you better, you know like number one get your message across but then also people to know that what you have can help them or can benefit them or give you a certain satisfaction of some kind and that’s really what I think people are missing when they’re looking at their listing on Amazon or whether it’s a website or whether it’s their emails. We’re going to talk about all three of those by the way. But why don’t we first introduce everyone to you as far as like where did you come from Joel? What’s your background a little bit maybe you can get us caught up a little bit?

[00:02:36] Joel: Ok. Yeah I started this entire game in real estate. I actually got my bookers license right out of college in California and was super excited. I had learned a little bit of marketing to get everything going and pretty soon I found that I was getting a ton of leads and I didn’t really realize what I had done but I started talking to agents and they were, “Wow you got how many?” I’m just get some reference for that like most agents might get maybe 30 leads in a year. I was getting 120 in a week.

[00:03:06] Scott: Wow.

[00:03:06] Joel: I had no idea though. I’m in my own bubble trying to get it to go and I’m like a month or two into having results like this and started talking to some agents at events and they were like, “what are you doing?

[00:03:18] Scott: Nice.

[00:03:18]Joel: They wondered everything. They were just picking my brain. At that point though I was also realizing I didn’t like real estate. I didn’t like driving around lost trying to show someone a home. But I loved marketing. It was an exciting piece where even small changes can make all the difference. So I paired up with my dad at the time who was an agent and started doing the marketing for them remotely eventually I moved up to Reno where they were. We built out a team did really well in real estate for a number of years and I got to do what I have really loved which was marketing. So as the market kind of changed on us in real estate and I found myself as a director of marketing of a tech company and really belling out marketing for a company which that was in a developing stage, was really interesting.

They were doing high tracking technology which I thought was super cool and I was excited to be part of it. But that moved on, I met Chris though there. Actually had hired him originally. As you reminded me last time Chris was telling everybody that we hated each other.

[00:04:23] Scott: He does say that very aggressively too by the way.

[00:04:25] Joel: He does. No I think he has resentment there. I wish I could go back and apologize for what I did no. He probably deserved it knowing Chris, he earned every ounce of it. We probably butt heads a little bit because we were very similar. We definitely extroverted and excited to talk about whatever is going on. I can imagine like having some rub there but we quickly became pretty close friends and had the idea of starting a business together and doing what we were doing on the side. We doing a lot of moonlighting ourselves. Those guys who are always looking for something to do, for something exciting and expanding and growing what we can do and so why don’t we do that together and that was the beginning about five or six years ago now.

[00:05:15] Scott: Wow.

[00:05:15] Joel: It’s really been cool. Feels like forever though I kind of look back on my past and go man Chris must have been there doing the real estate thing because Chris and I talk about everything marketing.

[00:05:22] Scott: Right right.

[00:05:24] Joel: But he wasn’t. Yeah it’s pretty cool.

[00:05:28] Scott: It goes it goes so quick and like I was saying in the other interview that no one is really hearing because it wasn’t really technically… It was recorded but the quality was terrible but anyway what we were talking about which I think it’s important for people to understand too. Before we get into this whole how to message your customers and the benefits and the features and that stuff I think that’s going to be for a lot of people sometimes it’s going to be sometimes it’s eye opening or aha moment where you’re like, “ Oh my Gosh. This can make a huge difference” But I did just want to say like you talking about your journey I don’t want to skip over that because a lot of what you did when you started you thought when you were in real estate I’m sure you were going to conquer the world than that and then all of a sudden things changed. The market shifts, like an amazon review update, maybe something like that.

[00:06:15] Joel: I think so.

[00:06:15] Scott: There was worse than that but you get what I’m saying. The SEO’s game changes in Google so now all of a sudden you got to pivot or you got to change the game and you seem you were excited about working on it, it wasn’t like the home as far as the listing and all that stuff. It was more about the marketing to get the lead to then have them buy a house that was cool for you, that was exciting but it’s funny now how that brought you through to where you are. Like I said before, you and I even wouldn’t be talking right now if I never started the podcast and if I never started this Amazon business. I mean really it goes from the Amazon business, then I start a podcast, then I meet Chris.

Then Chris introduces me to you. Now we are working together and we’ve got amazing TAS team now which I never even thought would even be possible and here we are and I’m learning every single day by being surrounded by people like you because it expands my mind as far as what I can do and people letting go parts of the business that they think that they can’t I think is another eye opener which we should probably talk about another time Joel because you’re pretty good at that.

[00:07:22] Joel: Yeah.

[00:07:22] Scott: You actually opened my eyes to that.

[00:07:24] Joel: Excellent.

[00:07:24] Scott: Yeah for sure, for sure that’s been a huge thing for me and it’s been a great lesson to remind yourself that you know you have to be willing to change and to expand. Sometimes it’s letting go of certain tasks that you think you have to be involved in but anyway I’m glad I met you, I’m glad you’re here on the podcast and it all happened because of one thing led to another and here we are. So pretty cool. Yeah so we were talking a lot about this at the event in Arizona which thank you so much by coming by the way you did awesome.

You did a nice little Facebook ads training there which was really cool but you were touching on these things as we were going through some of the email marketing the list building, contacting your list or optimizing your listing. We were talking a lot benefits and features and I said, “You what Joel we got to get you the podcast, we have to talk about this stuff. You do have really a good way of breaking it down.” So maybe with all that being said let’s go ahead and dig into that right. You got a couple of different ways, you got five ways here to better understand your audience and to really understand why they may or want to buy. Maybe we can dig into that.

[00:08:41] Joel: You had mentioned earlier this is not always the sexiest thing. You know I took it from a different angle earlier on because I realized the impact that it has. It’s the one like the space in marketing. You really get to hammer the human hammer back into it. So you’re not just like I’m just writing an email and hope this crazy machine out there works because at the end of the day you’re talking to a real person.

[00:09:07] Scott: Right.

[00:09:07] Joel: If all the things you’re doing all the technologies and the tools are really advancing, what you can do in marketing now today, the ability to webinars every week like you’re doing Scott if that technology didn’t come back and connect to what do the people actually care about, what do they really want? What can help them grow and expand then it didn’t matter. It was just going to fall on deaf ears at the end and your business wouldn’t grow.

This is like Chris and I are always looking at how do we take the technologies, how do we take the marketing campaign and how do we drive it back to where it really what matters, where it touches the lives of people where they’re actually at and help them get to the next level. How to get them where they need to go or just get a benefit that they are really seeking. A lot of e-commerce products like the garlic press, like changing their world but you’re making something that they do on a regular basis easier, more convenient, faster if they love garlic.

The garlic presser is great way to get a lot of garlic in any dish. And being aware of that is so critical so what I’ve done is put back the five pieces. If I had just had these, if just these concepts went in it would dramatically change the ability to make that connection and their impact and the things that were profound moments for me as I was going through this journey of things just clicked. I’m going to share those for you and hopefully give you some ways to use them.

Then you can actually start improving your copy and getting to more of your audience excited about your product not just, “Oh ok maybe this guy is just better than this guy,” but you don’t feel like you care about them.

[00:10:39] Scott: Yeah for sure and you know there is two things I want to say. First of you just mentioned to create better copy. For people that are brand new they don’t know what that means but I’m going to tell you guys what it means. It means basically writing ad copy. It’s really what he’s talking about or messaging. So whenever we say copy, we are really just talking about like the text on the page in the sense and really it’s just talked like that in the copywriting world and the marketing world but it’s languaging, it’s writing so when you hear that I just want to let you guys know that that is that Joel will be talking about and referencing back to.

But I did want to say like you know there is a couple of different ways, not even ways there is two different things that I think about when I’m doing this. Maybe not even looking consciously at this. Like when I write emails whether it’s to a customer that just bought the garlic press or whether it is someone like in this case talking to someone in my audience there is a little bit of a difference. Someone that just bought a garlic press might not want to be in depth with Scott’s story. But you could use some of these stories to why you made that product. If you had a garlic press and for years every time you use it you pinch your hand and you’ve had this big callus, he had this surgery or something, I don’t know.

I don’t know where that came from but you get what I’m trying to say. That’s crazy, right? But let’s just say and then all of a sudden this thing comes along… I can speak to that story and say I don’t know if you’ve got large hands you know like I do but because of that I just said you know what I’m going to go out there and build one for myself so this that and the other thing and whatever. Then you can take that story and bring it into your product and I think that does make your product stand out more because now it’s there because you had a problem that you dealt with and it shows the face to the product.

[00:12:36] Scott: Now when we are talking about something like this in this case the podcast, whenever I’m communicating with people I’m communicating with people to try to move them from one place to the other to make them achieve what they want to achieve in small steps. So I’m trying to lead them through, letting them know also that I am the same as you so again I’m connecting a story to whatever we are doing.

It lends itself to both arenas. You can do it with product, just Iook at the infomercials. Infomercials are a great example usually not always but there is story element involved and there’s benefits and there’s features. There is just ways that they do it. There’s a certain formula they do it with but I just wanted to throw them out because it will put into context as far as what we are doing here and yes if your languaging is… For a digital product that you're trying to change someone’s life that’s different than if you’re selling a garlic press it’s going to help them have a better experience using the garlic press.

[00:13:31] Joel: It’s a good point to make. A lot of people look at physical products and just go, “Well people just want to know about the features,” and they do to some degree but they generally don’t care about the features until they’ve decided they want the benefits. Until they decide hey there is something here that I don’t currently have that I like and if this product might do that for me. Someone was thinking of ways to prep garlic faster. The garlic presser isn’t the only method to get there.

If you read on a press that talks about their issues like I’m tired of cutting endless bits of garlic to get to the right side with a knife and it just takes forever and it’s not a fun process. If I want to add in more garlic it becomes like this adventure if I want to cook for my whole family… Understanding those elements of what’s really going on their life and why they are even standing in front you thinking about your product… Not physically standing in front of you but looking at the Amazon listing that’s a personal connection point. If you’d thought about that you actually have to talk to him as you would in person. That’s what’s so cool about that is marketing done right is basically duplicating what you would naturally do face to face to really help someone through their problem?

[00:14:42] Scott: Yeah.

[00:14:42] Joel: You get to do it like a million times over, if it’s the right audience. Sometimes people try to serve everybody and then that becomes more convoluted but understand that really the process of writing any copy or text facing towards the audience is that’s a chance for you to say if you were standing in front of them and trying to help them out how would you say that?

What would be trying to tell them? What would you try to get them understand? Do that well then you get to basically multiply yourself. That’s really what great marketers do. It’s all of a sudden one piece of content that because they had a very good conversation with someone who really needed a garlic press leads to every person that has the same issue is now going to want theirs because they made that problem clear and gave them a solution.

[00:15:25] Scott: Yeah and I think we touched on this too in the last interview which no one’s hearing, but I think we did talk about like a great way to do that because I’ll get people to say I don’t know what they want like I can’t listen to my audience because I don’t have the audience yet or I just have never sold in this market or whatever. Well one easy way is just go look at the reviews that are already populated there and just go through the negative reviews and the positive reviews and see what people are saying they love about it and what they hate about it. Then like you said, you said it very well hopefully you can do that again, I’m sure you can. How would you bridge those two? Like how would put that into copy so this way here it could explain that?

[00:16:03] Joel: Ok. So that first piece is to understanding that’s it’s about them like what’s going on in their world. The next piece is that they don’t always care about the product features. We touched on a little bit but they want to hear what’s in for them not to be rude or abrupt but you’re sitting on Amazon not because you’re like, “I can’t wait to connect to some marketer out there.” You’re going because you need something.

[00:16:22] Scott: Right.

[00:16:22] Joel: They want to know what they get in their world, how does their life become better than it is right now or easier or more convenient and so what you want to do you is you want to have those benefits throughout but it’s not always easy you because you want to have all those other features in there. And right now they are restricting how much information can be in those bullet points on the top of the Amazon listings. So you have to find a way to bridge that gap as Scott is saying you bring out the feature but you do it so you can something else. So the benefit is on the back side. If we were talking about garlic press, get this Amazing garlic press or get this Amazing garlic press with cleaner that will now easily clean each of pieces and get the garlic out of the press so save you endless hours of scrubbing over the sink.

So suddenly it’s something, a feature that they got a free cleaner thing that’s nice but if you just said deep free cleaner thing that’s not impressive. But if it’s get that so that makes your life is better and this is even a better unit to purchase or choose now you got both. Now you got interesting features but you also have the benefit on the backside always connecting them to what they really care about and what they want and what they are looking for.

[00:17:31] Scott: I love that. So you’re leading them with the feature maybe but then you’re explaining the benefit that the feature can provide.

[00:17:37] Joel: Yeah it’s I like the pair because people do want to know what they thinking, what are they even assessing? If it's stainless steel what does it mean? It doesn’t rust but if you don’t say that they don’t know. Not everybody knows that. You know that because you picked it for that reason or is dishwasher safe because it doesn’t have rust issues so there is all kinds of extra more benefits that they are looking for that really come off of that.

[00:18:03] Scott: I like that a lot. I think people can see that. I think also if you’re, maybe just go back to your listing right now and look at it and see if it reads like that and maybe that can be tweaked. A lot of people want to just focus on keywords. We all want to get keywords in there because we want to get ranked now because of the back end of our listings we can put endless keywords almost, there is a ton we can do there.

I wouldn’t worry so much about you have to put all of your keywords in the front end at all. I would like to… Again naturally it’s going to happen you’re going to be sprinkling in keywords because the language and the things that you’re talking about are naturally related to the keywords that you want to target anyway. Don’t force it, don’t stuff it try to make that listing a sales page in a sense to where it’s going to be talking about the futures and the benefits. Now with enhanced content and it’s going to make it even better.

If you guys are brand registered depending on when you’re listening to this right now they’re opening that up for no cost. Now they’ll probably be charging in the future. We are expecting that but they’re doing it as a beta roll out, they are doing it to all brand registered businesses, brands but it’s really awesome because you get three or four templates to pick from. You can now take those bullets, you can make them look sexier, you can make them look nicer with an image that’s aside from the benefits and the features. You can start I guess showing what it does not just explaining what it does. I think you get a double benefit there which is really cool. So let’s move on what do you got next?

[00:19:40] Joel: I can say the next piece kind of thinking about is customer journey as where are they at in the process? As your looking at what you’re writing towards them for thinking of someone who just showed up on Amazon and you’re like, ok. They came here, they have a certain problem maybe they threw a garlic prepper is what they put in the search engine and then your listing comes up and then they click on this. If you think about that process, they came in here for a reason.

Most have a reason even if it's not like 100%, you're not going to get a perfect but just the extra time to just wonder what was going on? What did they like about your listing when they did purchase? What are they connecting to? What did they think of the reviews on there? Is your ranking a good ranking? A lot of times you look at it as a number like how well I’m doing, I got 4.6 that seems pretty good but for the user that's a, “Do I trust this person? Should I buy this?”

Taking that kind of path and going, “Okay, where are they at? Why are they looking at this title?” They'd probably just start with the picture in the beginning so this has to do a pretty big thing. You have to get them with the picture and then have enough copy that they think, “Hey, this is what I'm looking for before they even click through.” As we think through that kind of process we can fine tune what's going on? Like you were asking in the last interview like really should benefits be earlier and how do you really stack that in the bullet points? Well, if you know the person is coming in, will be the first thing they are looking for as far as the garlic press. They probably want to know that it does what they want it to do.

They probably want something about how well it preps garlic. Then you would start there. Sooner that you can get that in there, the better you know that they are going to keep moving your listing and get your decision to buy. We do that a lot. It comes in even more on the backside. People think the journey ends when they hit that buy button and it's over but that's a different in a lot of industries of having a lifetime customer and then having a person never purchases from you ever again. Now they purchase, what do they want to hear?

[00:21:40] Joel: Well, they're not going to get it for a couple of days. Maybe they want to hear cool things to keep them excited. They were excited when they bought, they wanted something so maybe there is some way to bridge that gap, about excitement when they actually receive it or anything to connect them more to your brand is here to do something bigger for them. We start thinking through that. Now we have email set that is really powerful or helps share, “Hey, here's what other people are doing with this amazing press to make their lives easier,” or “Here are some of the features that you might have forgotten about from the listing.” It's just anything to keep that moving forward that they are excited that something is coming or, “Ever so excited, you're supposed to deliver tomorrow, I can't wait for you get your garlic press.” Anything like that where you really understand that what’s going is on in their lives, just connects people. They stop thinking that they are seeing some marketing machine just trying to sell them and they start feeling, “Okay, well somebody thought about this. Somebody really cares.”

[00:22:32] Scott: With that you're talking about… That’s more of the follow up.

[00:22:38] Joel: It doesn't matter where you are at. Like whatever piece of copy you're writing, thinking about where they are before and where they are going to be after.

[00:22:47] Scott: Now, one thing I do want to just bring up before I forget is with the benefits and the features, thinking about bullet points, people need to understand too that when they're skimming them, because that’s what they are really doing. They are scanning in a sense, not all those bullet points and benefits are going to matter. That's why you want to have those variety of benefits and features because there's going to be one that might pull them in. I will give you a quick example of this. I was looking at a ring light for shooting video and it's one of those giant, it looks just like a ring.

It's just like a giant ring, probably like 18 inches and you put your camera in it, in the center of it so it goes all the way around and it gives us some really nice light but I wanted it with a dimmer switch because I wanted to be able to control the amount of light. There’s some that just go on and off. You can't adjust.  The only way you can adjust is by moving it back and forth. I was instantly looking for that. If it wasn't the title I might have just gotten out of there if I didn’t see it said with dimmers but inside I was skimming to see if they had a dimmer.

That was a feature but actually the benefit of that if they would have put it in there would have been because I can adjust the light. The adjusting is really what I was looking for, not so much the dimmer switch or the oversized dimmer switch or whatever but that's… Again and it's an example of how I was skimming. As soon as I would skim if I’d seen they had a dimmer, boom I might buyer now. Now that moves me onto the next point. Now I might look at the reviews and then I might… You see what I'm saying?

[00:24:17] Joel: Yeah, that is a great example and it's one of those things like people tend to like set their copy and then they never change it again. What you just described is like that may be a major benefit that they are not addressing at all and if they were continuing like maybe reading the reviews they are getting on their listing or reading the reviews of other people, they'd start seeing that and they’d go, “Oh, you know what, I'm seeing this a lot.” Because it's not always like, if you are the only one that said I want a dimmer switch, that's not a business made.

To some degree in the ecommerce space, you're trying to serve the biggest grouping that you can while still being specialized like it's a weird balance but if 2% of your group is looking for dimmers then you may have an issue but if you start seeing that a lot, while there's probably a higher percentage. You might be 30%, 40% so now you got to figure out that blueprint comes in. The reason I say that is because a lot of people go, “Oh this one person said this one thing.” Then they update their listing and they're, “Oh it's not performing.”

I listened to you, I asked someone about it but were they your audience? You know, someone who actually clicks a lot. Are you hearing it from the one place. There is a think like yes, you can test them, put them in there and see what happens. As your listing sales go up? Then you probably like you added something but you can do that research ongoing. Always read the reviews. You can read reviews, go check it out.

[00:25:39] Scott: Read the reviews and I think then once you do have a customer base, that's why having your own email list would also help in that in the future by asking them which that's a whole other conversation. Funny story on that ring light. I ended up sending it back. The reason, there was no dimmer. Because I couldn't find where it is or if it did have one I didn’t see. I just said if it doesn't have it I'll just send it back. If they would have had it in there they would have avoided a refund as well.

That was a true story and I just dug that out of the archives in my brain just as we were talking. That’s pretty impressive I have to admit. I can't really dig that deep usually. Moving along, we are hearing benefits and features are great. Again, they are great in copy, that's really what we're talking about here but they are great in images too where you can see the benefit. I always tell people and I was sharing this at the event that I was just at in San Diego, I was like, if you have a picture of someone like almost crying because they are frustrated with something and then the next picture they are smiling, oh look at it fixed.

It's like you have benefit, before and after, problem solved. Stuff like that works. That's why they do them in infomercials. They look silly maybe to some, you don't have to go as goofy as maybe an infomercial but you get the idea. It works, it's been proven time and time again. People want to see the benefit and the feature and see what it's going to do to make their experience better all the way around. That goes into your journey thing.

[00:27:11] Joel: Yeah, that's a great point on the benefits. If you start with understanding what the benefits they want, you can select images that really show them, hey they are going to get this and what it would look like when they do. That is really cool. That's really powerful. It’s always that starting. These first like three, actually all of these points are really about understanding them the a little bit better and then just having that so if you have like this questions like, “Okay does the audience really care about this? Did I cover the benefits that they care most about? Did I think about where they are in the process so I can really help them?” Then you're going to just get to a better listing.

[00:27:46] Scott: Guys what we'll do is we'll put these five ways to better understand your audience like a little bullet point list inside of the show notes so this episode will be theamazingseller.com/297. I did say 297, didn't I?

[00:28:02] Joel: Yes you did.

[00:28:02] Scott: Okay, cool. That will be episode number so if you go there, we'll have a nice little bullet point list there for you so and we'll do a little recap here at the end before we wrap this up but I think it would be good just a little bit of a checklist in a sense and you can go through and see if you're hitting these points as kind of a check to see how well your copy is doing.

[00:28:24] Joel: That's really powerful. If you do it a handful of times, with kind of a checklist you start internalizing what really matters to you and you learn how to do it yourself. It's one of those things where it becomes like, “Hey, I had reminders at first but now it's a skill.” Any piece of copy I look at I can add this or any kind of writing assignment I have to do towards my audience. I can get an angle, “Okay, I can make this better for them. I can make this stronger, make them more excited about the process of buying from me.”

[00:28:48] Scott: Hey, before we jump to the next point, very similar to that like you just said like once you start getting the skill set we talk about that in product research, we talk about that in anything. We were talking to a guy at the event, his name was Mike and he had said, “Scott after I've been to some of your workshops, I’ve listened to the podcast,” he's like, “Now I have it down as far as my little checklist as I'm going through it. In the beginning I was going through and I was like, okay did I do this, okay did…” Now it's just like second nature and he's like, “Okay, I go here, I go to camelcamelcamel. I check that number, I go over here, I go to Google Trends. If it doesn't have this, I don't go there.”

He's got it all down and it was funny because he was explaining it to someone else that we were sitting next to and I'm like, “You got this. You got this. You've been listening, you've been practicing what you've been learning,” and he's like, “You know what, it's just because I've been doing it now for the past like month and that's all I've been doing.” Now he's got that system down. He's got that filter or those filters built in so he can run it through his process. The same thing goes when you're doing this stuff. You're going to start to see it and understand it. It'll become easier and almost just like second nature. I just want to throw that out there because it's like anything. It's a skill set.

[00:30:00] Joel: That is an excellent point because… I run that conversation all the time when I talk to someone and they are like, “Oh, you know I'm not sure what product I need to do and here I've looked at some of these,” and when I really dig into the conversation, most of the time they haven't put the work in to do the research. Even if it's like you had a bunch and they sucked and the refund fell through but you only did ten. You didn't walk away with a skill. You walked away with “ahh maybe that’s something I could possibly do.” But if you're looking at a hundred products and you get through those, you're going to know something about the industry, you're going to know a lot about the products, you're going to know so much more than you realized that you're going to know.

People get so focused on, “Well, I just want to be easy and I just want to get that product and then I can start.” No, you're starting, you're doing the real research because that's going to be the difference between your brand growing and you knowing not only this product but the next three by doing that work and it's so crucial. A lot of times, they're not doing anything. They just stall themselves, they just do this, just stay at that first piece and they are really dialed in and they walk away with something and maybe they don't use it to sell on Amazon. They have an opportunity to sell on eBay or their own site or the skill sets you walk around in my life always, if you only did the work, you're going to have it for every venture and it's a really neat thing.

[00:31:17] Scott: I talk about that when I tell people about my story about when even I just in the photography space and then when I came out of the photography space and went to sharing that online and then like did my digital products there and stuff, like I learned so much through that now I get to take them here in Amazon, in eBay, in the podcast, in all of these different things like that skillset it all still adapts. It was funny, when I was in San Diego, I was at the event there all about Facebook ads and stuff and we talked a lot about all the things through sales, offers, funnels, all kinds of stuff. But it's just funny like all of these people had different businesses but everything really comes down to that marketing and list building and the offer and messaging and everything it all still comes down… So any bit of this can attach to any market really because people are people. It's basically what it comes down to.

[00:32:07] Joel: Yeah, once you get through that, that's a great point, once you through the marketing it's not just something you do to show off your business but it's really a way to connect to people, that skill set is universal. You're going to use it, a lot of great marketers have sales backgrounds, they had to refine that messaging in person like right now. Now they are sitting down and they have a little bit of time to think about it they can really start to get really good pieces in there that they know drive people's excitement.

[00:32:33] Scott: That's good point. Good point.

[00:32:36] Joel: And vice versa. If you really learn this and get your fine tweak in the things that go on in your listing, guess who's going to describe your product better than anybody they talk to. It naturally all pairs together because you're taking, “Hey I got something here I can explain it to another person in a way that it will excite them to want it and get something better in their life.”

[00:32:56] Scott: Yeah, for sure. All right cool. Let's move on. We've got a couple more points here I think, don't we?

[00:33:01] Joel: Yeah, these last two are pretty important. They actually come down to a great skillset and I pulled it down to something that I think is really easy and usable but this is actually Chris and I got a lot of our start here by looking at personality profiling and understanding how that affects marketing. I'm going to give you just a couple of pieces that really allow you to use it so you don't have to advance test, to have your users fill out and then you can score them who they are but we all kind of have a loose understanding of this and so the one I wanted to give you is just the piece, extrovert versus introvert. Some of the audiences are naturally like have a leaning towards extrovert and others have a leaning towards introvert. What we saw in a lot of kitchen gadget was definitely more towards introvert.

What does that mean to you and your company? Well, the real break down is one is led by excitement, and the other is led by security. You won't move someone that's looking… So if a mother is looking add another utensil and she's worried about the safety for her kids that knife better have a cover. You better tell that story about how it actually naturally has safety features built into it if it's a slicer or a garlic press, that better be in there and it better be in there quick or you're going to lose that person already. This is where if we’ve done some pieces above you start thinking okay who's more likely to be my audience? Someone who's really outgoing like what are their hobbies and interests based on this product is connected to those hobbies and which ones are…

So how do I start with an excitement piece or who's going to really need some sort of enhanced security before they even listen to the rest of the message? That's just a key piece and another example for extrovert. If you're looking at things like Sales Books or anything in the entrepreneur space, there just seems to be a large population of extroverts in that space and if you don't get them excited that life's going to be grand or bigger or they are going to get something really big from it, they are not listening to the features. They are not hearing it all.

[00:35:01] Scott: Got you. That makes sense.

[00:35:02] Joel: My life needs to be cooler and better and then if you talk to… We did bring up with the moms with just the security but it depends if you're getting into baby products that security level like increases exponentially, they want to know what's the pain from, how safe is it? Does it come apart? Is there small bits? You got to have all that in there to really drive that. Just asking a question, are they extroverted and they are seeking excitement or are they introverted and seeking security? That's sort of affecting a lot of the copy you're doing?

[00:35:28] Scott: That's a great point. To that one little nugget is huge because again if you can speak to that person and again, depending on what you're selling, you're going to have a mixture probably in your market there's always going to be but then you can also maybe bridge that gap by having little bit of excitement pieces and a little bit of security pieces in there to match the two but you're also know maybe majority of your audience is one category or the other but that's really good.

[00:36:00] Joel: In a lot of cases people are worried about that's spread like, “Okay if I go excitement and a small percentage of my audience is security, am I going to lose them?” What we've generally seen is that your listing overall will do better as you get more dialed into the bigger chunk or the more of the church you can actually reach. Like if the product does definitely lean more towards excitement and it's easier to write copy and get that in there you're going to have a better, more effective listing. Yes, you will lose some of the security sales but overall your numbers will be up. In most cases there’s very few examples for we’ve walked in and said, “You know what you really do have to spot the difference here.”

You're going to have to start touching both of those but in most cases it's not that. It's get your listing has so much room to grow just on that first one. If you’re just targeting that group and get back squared away and really talking to them, your numbers will start to go up. If you're watching your numbers you'll know when it was too much. Your numbers stop growing, that's when you go, “Okay, maybe I need to cover a larger segment now.” That's how you determine that. That's not just… If you try to cover everybody in the beginning, generally you tend to have a very lame listing. It's impotent, it doesn’t have like any excitement to anybody because it's trying to talk to everybody.

[00:37:16] Scott: Yeah, that's a huge point too. Just speaking to not just one person but in a sense you are. You’re talking to that type of person that is buying that product or that maybe interested in that particular thing. I've seen people where they try to target everyone because they don't want to lose any of the market but sometimes that can also hurt your business because now it doesn't feel specialized. It doesn’t feel like it's tailored for the bass fishermen, it's tailored for all fishermen. But I want a bass fishing rod or whatever. I don't if they make bass fishing rod.

[00:37:54] Joel: Scott Voelker's bass fishing rod.

[00:37:56] Scott: Buy yours today for just $19.95 and today we'll throw in, what are we going to throw in, we'll throw in two rods for the price of one with free shipping. That way there Joel and Scott can go fishing together.

[00:38:10] Joel: That one way to get your giant bass.

[00:38:13] Scott: All right, leading into that personality I guess we just shown a little bit of personality there.

[00:38:18] Joel: I was going to say like you’ve nailed it. Like it's a perfect lead in and it's something actually you'd do exceptionally well and you see it throughout your marketing is adding a real personality to it and that's not just like you necessarily but the personality of  someone out there, actually a real person is writing to them and that might vary. If we’ve done things right, we’ve got a really good understanding of who we're talking to or even how you add the personality you want it to be things they're interested in, things they are excited by but that feeling it’s not, you're not essential reporting things. You’re telling a little bit of a story, here's my story with my giant hands and my garlic press accident.

People remember that because at the end of the day people really do prefer to buy from people rather than like just dry machines and it really doesn't matter. People think it's like, “My industry is different I sell this really high end technology piece,” and generally it is sold best by someone who specializes in this space that is a real person, a real sales person is calling them and helping them through their issues to make that decision, it is an emotional buying point and people want to buy from people. They do, especially if you've done your homework above, people like them. The more it feels like you really understand what's going on and you've had those issues, they start to believe you and they have a story that they remember.

The number of like marketing events I've been through and when I walk through it like I’m trying to remember six months later what did I cover I remember people telling like some personal story of theirs. Rarely do I go, “Oh here's exactly checklist of the things and the to-do’s that they said I should do in my marketing.” It's usually, “That was the guy that did the story about blank” and then maybe it’s connected back to something I know I should do in my marketing.

[00:40:02] Scott: Again, I think this comes right into your story. Your personality is part of your story or can be part of your story and the personality obviously helps people to know, like and trust you as well. I was watching The Profit not that long ago and they had, and actually was the one that Russell Brunson was in, he was on for just a very short period of time but it was all about the flex watches, did you see that one Joel?

[00:40:27] Joel: I didn't.

[00:40:27] Scott: Oh, you got to see that one, that was a good one. Anyway, it was all about their story and the reason why they created the flex watch. The flex watch was created with this kid, young guy. He was probably in this 20s at the time and his mother had cancer so they went and they created a watch and the sales from the watch would help to benefit the cancer society and that stuff so it was a good cause. Unfortunately, his mother did pass away and they continued to really focus on growing the business for that charity but then they also started to try to branch out and instead of it being a $30 watch, 10% of the proceeds went to Cancer, they would just go on out trying to appeal to the entire market because they were in the watch market.

Well, Marcus Lemonis comes in and says, “let's get rid of that crap. Let's go back to the purpose here. Let's go back to your story” because your story is nowhere involved, it's not even involved in those metal, those high end $200, $300 watches that you are trying to sell. There's none of your story in that. Let's skip all those. Now, instead of that let’s maybe go out and do a blue watch that supports like pure water and then we would do another one that is for, what would be another cause?

[00:41:44] Joel: Breast cancer awareness.

[00:41:45] Scott: Yeah, well breast cancer awareness, we'd have the water. They had another one for clean air. A green one for organic, whatever it is but they are going after certain markets for certain causes and you're doing something good and it all relates back to why you started the company in first place. Once they did that, boom, everything just took off again and it made things simpler as well but you had a story and this kid was able to pour his heart and soul into what he was doing and really believing it and also knowing he had still a part of his mother involved giving back from what they lost.

Listen to me right now, I remembered most of that story because it was a story and it hit me and it made me emotional and it made me think like wow, I wish I could do something like that or I could tie something into, which in my own head I do have ideas and I'm sure we'll do something in the future but it's like that stuff really hit me, it impacts me, it makes want to buy a flex watch.

[00:42:48] Joel: Do you know how many type of benefits of the watch itself do you know apart from telling time?

[00:42:52] Scott: I have no idea. I don't even care.

[00:42:55] Joel: That happens, you don’t!

[00:42:57] Scott: I don't even care if tells time. I just care that it's got the purpose and I'd be wearing it and when I'd look at, I'd know the purpose. It wouldn't even be so much for people to know that I donated, it'd be more of me to see it and then remember that cause and remember what I did to hopefully help it but the it'd also be a conversation piece because I would say “Oh, that's a cool watch,” or, “Oh we know that's a unique like print on that watch on that, what's that? Where did you get that?” I'd be like, “Oh it's this,” and I'd tell the story. Then that's how that would grow.

[00:43:26] Joel: That’s fantastic example because that's one of those things they're like it disconnects from features almost entirely but it added a benefit to your life that was really important, you're about contributing and giving back. Here was this way to do that for you. How cool is that? That was the benefit they got. That had nothing to do with the features. The features all go away. That's how powerful it can be if you have the right feature and the right benefits, guess how powerful that is in moving product.

[00:43:52] Scott: It was a great story and it was a great example of story and purpose and giving back but then having a successful business. It can all work together but…

[00:44:05] Joel: The story is perfect, I mean that is definitely a big piece of this but even simpler where I see this go wrong in this adding personality is when people have like nostalgic follow up letters. I don’t know if you've probably seen a lot on Amazon follow ups and if the email comes down and says, “Hi, I'm thanking you for buying from Blank Express. We're so glad that you purchased our watch, thank you, have a good day.”  There’s very little in there. You feel like there is no real person versus if you got an email that said, “Hi, this is Jane. I just want to say hi and make sure that you that it's coming. It's going to be a couple of days. We can't wait to see what you think about it.

We always love to hear reviews if you can click on this link when you do get a chance and let us know. We want you to be able to tell how your experience with it so that you can help our audience really understand the benefits of what we're doing here.” That's a real person and even if you don't really believe in all those things you want to, there’s an impetus to connect People have that natural human instinct to go, that person really asked for some really cool things and I guess to be connected to these other people that's the difference, in adding personality versus not.

[00:45:12] Scott: I've said this before. Even me personally like I'll sprinkle in that I'm a locally owned small business and we really want to make sure that we're delivering a great product and we want to know if we're not so could you do me a quick favor? Could you head over to Amazon and let them know how we're doing or what we can do better. Since we're here, I'm not saying like leave me a five star review. That's where it gets dodgy, that’s where you don’t want to do that.

[00:45:44] Joel: But they are more likely to give you a better review because they feel like a person who cares is on the other side. It's not some company that doesn't matter. You said we are a small business and we’re are hoping… You’re even like separating yourself. We’re not just the giant machine that is Amazon, I'm an individual seller here really trying to make it best for everyone and this would help my business and help you and help other… Any of the things where it's like, I'm not that giant machine out there. I'm a real person and I like to connect to you and it's just cool, it's a really great way. People feel better about it they don't feel like they’ve been marketed to and getting hammered over the head with some message, “Come buy another garlic press!” “You don't think one is good?” “Buy two.”

[00:46:26] Scott: “But wait!” I hear you. If you can connect to people in your email and if you can sprinkle in a little bit of your personality, a little bit of your story and then they'll want to do that for you. I would say in emails that would be a great place for that.

[00:46:42] Joel: A great tip is just go look at how you talk to your friends on social media or in emails, for family, for people that you're close to and notice the difference. You're not trying to look like a giant corporation. You really are trying to look like a real person that cares. That's where you are trying to get to, you pick the product for a reason, the people have real benefits and needs out there and they just want to hear from a real person that hey, that might me an email I get from a buddy of mine. There more there is like that, the more compelling it is for me to read it and me to care.

[00:47:10] Scott: Yeah. That's great point. All right man, this has been good. I told you I didn't know where I was going to go when we got started here but man we really drilled it down into some really good points here. Is there any last little bits or tips, whatever you got for people that you can maybe just leave us with, maybe just to remind us maybe just, people getting started sometimes overwhelming. What would you say from someone that's just got their product up or maybe that's been up for a little while and their listing has been sitting there, what would you say to them?

[00:47:40] Joel: Just take these one at a time. This isn't something that you have to do all at once. Actually the more you dial in on one and really just keep that the focus, the more you learn about it and the more you internalize so it's an ongoing skill. If you just said, I'm not going to do all this. There's a lot of cool points but I'm not ready to write a bunch of emails in the backside and try to make them so personable, I don't like writing that much, just go and start with does what's going on in your listing actually address issues you think the customer is having.

Do Scott’s recommendation of checking out other reviews and just make sure those are in there. Once you get that, you get some momentum, it's easier to go, okay, what’s the next thing that could improve this? That makes it so it’s not daunting. It's something that even if you, some people are still in the Amazon business when they have a full time job, well this is something that takes an hour a week maybe. It doesn’t have to crash all of your time and just the more you're making those little adjustments they add up. So take a breather and really focus on that.

[00:48:37] Scott: I think that's a great point. Don't get overwhelmed with it. Take one thing at a time and then from there, just you can constantly be tweaking and learning what your market is even if from the pay-per-click that you're running, you want to learn some stuff there. Then just start to add it in and start to tweak it and you may have some products that don't, that you don't need to do all of this with because it just sells automatically and you don't need to go and try to build this thing way out. But in the same breath, if you want a product to sell better and it's not selling that well, and especially if people are landing and the page is not converting, that's where I would say I would definitely want to focusing on these points because that could be part of the problem. It's not conveying the messaging the way it should be.

Hey Joel, this has been awesome. I love sitting out geeking out a little bit with this stuff because we both do believe that marketing is a bit deal in whatever market you are in or whatever business you are in but you're not going to learn it overnight but it definitely is pretty powerful, all of that psychological stuff or every type of message that we get we're always thinking to ourselves like maybe not even subconsciously we're just thinking to ourselves like okay what is this going to do for us or what are they trying to get from us.

You know what I mean, it's like that guard. I really appreciate it and just want to thank you for coming on, we’ll probably have you come back on, maybe we can even talk a little bit more on the email stuff and messaging there because that's we can talk a lot about subject lines and copywriting and all that stuff too.

[00:50:12] Joel: Yeah, and we’ll look at what good stack would look like to keep people engaged and keep helping them.

[00:50:15] Scott: That sounds great. All right man. I appreciate you and all the help that you're giving me personally and then now the TAS community and just to let everyone know that Joel is definitely going to be around, helping all of us here in the TAS community so I just wanted to bring him to the surface, let everyone know that he is part of our amazing team now and I want to thank Chris Shaffer here, and I'll do it publicly, I was going to say don't tell him I told you but I want to thank him for making the intro because you're definitely a smart guy that can definitely add a lot to people that are just starting or just people that are trying to build their businesses. I just want to thank you, I appreciate you and we'll talk to you soon brother.

[00:50:56] Joel: Absolutely.

[00:50:58] Scott: All right. There you have it. A lot of great information there guys. I know sometimes it can seem overwhelming. Don't let it be though. Please, take that deep breath like Joel said and just do one thing at a time like think about what you have already or what you're going to be creating and think about where you can inject these certain pieces of add copy or messaging and really just try to connect with your audience and understand your audience. The more that you understand the market that you're serving a product to the better that you can sell to that market because, let's face it you're talking in their language.

You're talking about problems or benefits that they are looking to for. It's really, really powerful so guys I want to remind you, we have all the show notes and the transcripts located at theamazingseller.com/297 and you can pick up all that stuff over there. I have a nice bulleted list of what we covered there for you so you can even just print it out there if you want to. We'll have the transcripts there, any links we talked about will be there as well and yeah guys. That's pretty much going to wrap it up. I did want to just say we've got some pretty cool guests on the show. Pretty awesome and we've got some more coming up and actually on episode 300, well I'm not going to say anymore.

You're going to want to listen to episode 300. We've got a special rare episode because we're celebrating our 300th episode and well I’m just going to leave it at that. Listen to episode 300 when it posts and if you're listening to this after, let's see, December 28th, well then go back and listen to episode 300 because again it tells you a lot about what Joel and I were talking about as far as like when you start in business, a lot of the journey comes or a lot of times the journey comes from the steps that you've talked and the things that you've learned along the way.

All right guys, that's it, that's going to wrap it up. Remember I'm here for you, I believe in you, and I am rooting for you but you have to you have to… Come on say it with me, say it loud, say it proud, come on now, “Take action.” Have an awesome, amazing day and I’ll see you right back here on the next episode.


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5 Tips Checklist

5 Ways to better understand your audience and why they really buy
  • Understanding it's about them not you
  • Good marketing goes unnoticed
  • Write in benefits to them, not just product features
  • Customer Journey (Understanding where they are in the Buying process)
  • Understanding Their personality Extro Vs. Intro (excitement or security)
  • Personality (people like to buy from people they like)


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Join the discussion

  • I really appreciated the point about introverts and extrovert buyers – something I never considered, but certainly agree with. Thanks for that!

  • Awesome episode. Especially your great guest, Joel.
    You didn’t include any contact info nor any products/services that he might be offering
    I would love more interviews with him because that’s someone who can help us all in our general marketing ventures
    Thanks Scott for overdelivering

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